I'm going to be totally honest...

[skoosiepants]

This is simplifying a lot, but...

Okay, so when Mike and the other Wraiths-turned-human confronted Lathon in the woods? I totally thought it was going to be a we're human looking but we still act like Wraith when one of our own pisses us off type of thing. Because it's not like they're loyal to one another. We've seen that enough. And you know what? I think that storyline would've been cooler than the we've stopped taking the medicine and remember thing. Because then they would've been addressing the issue that even though they look human, they still are innately Wraith, and now what do the Altanteans do with them and they're messed up social moralities? Or something like that.

Also, Beckett was a complete idiot the entire episode.

Also, also, I have no problem with them killing off the Wraith-turned-humans. I'm sorry. They're still Wraith, they're still a threat, and it's still war. Probably not everyone's opinion, but eh. *shrugs* The Wraith are pretty evil, and I don't think anyone comes out smellin' like roses in war.

Comments

[lillian78.livejournal.com]

But are the Wraith evil or true to their nature as a high end predator? I've used this argument before but we, as humans, slaughter hundreds of thousands of animals a day for our repasts. We're the high end predator on this planet and very few of us take exception to that. I think what the humans did is far crueler. End their life to survive yes but don't experiment/torture them.

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

Well, that gets into Beckett's morality, and I think he was being an idiot about the whole thing. The hive ship, they had to do it to survive, so I'm not going to argue with that, but Mike. Yeah, I think they could've handled him differently.

And it could go lots of different ways, but when you're dealing with two intelligent species fighting for survival, then it's more of a war than a predator/prey dynamic to me, so I'm okay with calling the Wraith evil. But I also understand that it's innate, and not a cultural aberration, so it's a tough line to walk.

I'm not exactly going to say I'm routing for the 'good guys,' because obviously the sga team did some bad things, but I'm still on their side anyway.

[lillian78.livejournal.com]

Well, of course, we see someone eating us as *evil* but I suspect the Wraith regard humans as their natural "prey" and don't philosophize about their intelligence etc. A great white shark who has attacked a human is demonized and sets off all kinds of craziness i.e. shark hunts, shooting sharks out of the water literlly but the the predator isn't choosing evil so much as his lunch. :-D

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

No, I wouldn't call a shark evil, but then they aren't highly organized creatures with the one single goal of eating humans.

Which brings up the question, what the hell do Wraith do other than eat humans? Seriously, I'm really curious. Do you think they do anything? Play cards? Talk to one another? Because you'd think that at their intelligence level, they'd have more of a purpose than merely surviving. Although maybe not, since apparently there's so many of them... maybe just surviving is difficult? hmmmmmm...

[lillian78.livejournal.com]

That's a great question. With their natural life span you'd think they'd have a little more energy for things wouldn't you? But there is that problem of them going dormant for long periods of time, fifty years at a clip right? Maybe the very biology that makes them live almost supernaturally long lives has a high price in consumption too. A lion on the Serengeti plain must rest and conserve energy between hunts otherwise they waste valuable calories for nothing. Maybe that's the Wraith's problem with diversification as well. Human's live shorter but perhaps more productive lives.

[twilight-la-fae.livejournal.com]

Peter Deluise actually brought this up in the commentary for The Gift- as the Wraith go strolling by, as seen by Teyla, Peter remarks that all they actually do is go back and forth the hairdressers- keeping their locks pretty and styled. He said it was a very time consuming procedure, *grin*

I'm pretty iffy on this episode as well- Michael, oh Michael. They could of handled that oh so much better. *shifts* I don't know about the whole killing-the-Wraith-people thing. I got the whole surviving thing, but some of those didn't have a clue. And do we even know if they're dead? Maybe the other hive scooped them up. *shrug*

I guess this is why I like this show so much- They are not the perfect good guys. They make some seriously sucky decisions, they fuck up, and you have to question the characters you've grown to love. Atlantis is pretty hardcore, compared to what I've heard of SG-1. I've never watched it, so I don't know though.

[sp23.livejournal.com]

I don't see the experiments as torture in any sense of the word. What Beckett is attempting is a way to neutralize a creature (sentient or not) that has prayed for millennia on human beings without the least trace of compassion. Now they're even completely depopulating entire planets. For a sentient species that's incredibly vicious and stupid. If the Iratus DNA can be permanently eradicated, then there is hope for co-existence. The only other answer would be complete genocide of the individuals that make up the species of Wraith. At least with the retrovirus, the individuals live even it they are not longer Wraith.

As for all the hand-wringing about the morality of Beckett's retrovirus, I guess I have a pretty low moral standard because I have no problem with my own species doing whatever is necessary to protect itself from these predators.

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

I think the only thing I had a problem with is the way Beckett handled it. I mean, is he deluding himself? He can't honestly think they're human with his drug, can he? *shakes head*

I have no problem with my own species doing whatever is necessary to protect itself from these predators. Completely with you.

[sp23.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Beckett was stupid, and as was also said, so was Sheppard. And now I'm wondering if Beckett isn't compromised somehow by whatever Michael did to him. I have a feeling we're going to have a Manchurian Candidate-esque plot happening.

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

Ooooo, I didn't think of Carson being compromised. Interesting...

[lillian78.livejournal.com]

Not to be repetitive but again that's *our* reaction as a high end predator. Something tries to eat me? Kill it and destroy all the rest! Sort of puts us on the same shaky moral ground as the imaginary Wraith. Mind you, I'd fight just as hard to keep from being lunch but I don't see us as somehow in any way "superior" to the Wraith. :-D

[zabbers.livejournal.com]

They're pretty smug about it, though. They play with their food.

[lillian78.livejournal.com]

Actually, so do cats and we don't regard them as evil, well, at least some of us don't. :-D

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

End their life to survive yes but don't experiment/torture them. Actually, I just remembered... Wasn't the whole point of Teyla's Wraith DNA that they DID experiment on them? And the whole inject their body with enzyme to keep them alive longer is arguably torture. It's iffy, but still a point.

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

Wait, I think I got that quote backwards. It's early. For me, at least. Ah well... it's still something.

[30toseoul.livejournal.com]

Also, also, I have no problem with them killing off the Wraith-turned-humans. I'm sorry. They're still Wraith, they're still a threat, and it's still war. Probably not everyone's opinion, but eh. *shrugs* The Wraith are pretty evil, and I don't think anyone comes out smellin' like roses in war.

Agreed. Because this is not war in the normal sense -- this is war against creatures who want TO EAT YOU. I'm getting a little bored with 'moral' discussions that are coming from the angle of Earth wars for land or power or hatred or whatever. (I still had problems with the plot in this episode, but killing-of-the-Wraith wasn't one of them.)

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

this is war against creatures who want TO EAT YOU. Yes, exactly! How can you argue killing or not killing them, when if you don't kill them, you'll be their breakfast, lunch and dinner?

[sp23.livejournal.com]

I just made this same argument to the post above yours. Really, really don't have a problem with Beckett's retrovirus, and I actually didn't have a problem with the Hoffans drug that killed any Wraith that fed on them except that the Wraith would totally destroy the planet. Of course, the Wraith have been decimating planet after planet anyway, so I'm not sure that argument holds water anymore anyway.

[souliesoul.livejournal.com]

Because then they would've been addressing the issue that even though they look human, they still are innately Wraith
Yes, that'd have been a lot more interesting to explore than falling back on the reverting to Wraith thing.

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

I seriously thought that's the direction they were going, right up until Beckett turned around and stumbled into Wrait-face Mike.

[smalldiver.livejournal.com]

I had a growing thought that Michael remembered everything, but still wanted to give the new life a try; and was thinking "Ooh, that's good". Shows what I know... *Sniffs and cradles broken theory*

[piplover.livejournal.com]

Also, also, I have no problem with them killing off the Wraith-turned-humans. I'm sorry. They're still Wraith, they're still a threat, and it's still war. Probably not everyone's opinion, but eh. *shrugs* The Wraith are pretty evil, and I don't think anyone comes out smellin' like roses in war.

AMEN!
A lot of people are saying that they have a problem with the killing of the Wraith. Why? In my mind, they rank even lower than terrorists, and quite frankly, just becuase they look human doesn't make them human, and it didn't change their nature.
And Beckett? Was an idiot this episode, but so was Sheppard for leaving him there. But Beckett moresoe, lol.

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

just becuase they look human doesn't make them human, and it didn't change their nature. Right! I mean, just the fact that they had to wipe their memories says so much. Although I guess that was a byproduct of the drug, too. Unless Beckett added that to the drug on purpose. I wonder which is the case? Did they say?

And Beckett? Was an idiot this episode, but so was Sheppard for leaving him there. J kept bitching about why the hell Sheppard would just give in to Beckett, when he's the CO and can order him to leave, even if he's a civilian, since they were offworld. He's totally right. Sheppard should of just threw him over his shoulder and dragged him out. It was such a bad idea for him to stay.

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

Also, also, I have no problem with them killing off the Wraith-turned-humans. I'm sorry. They're still Wraith, they're still a threat, and it's still war.

I don't have a problem with that either. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say they're evil (at least not by their own standards), but the humans are in a kill or be killed situation. IMO the only thing that retrovirus should be used for is to weaken them so they're easier to kill. In fact, I think they should've just cut power to the statis pods and jettisoned the bodies into space, but then there wouldn't have been a show....

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

Right, they certainly don't see themselves as evil.

IMO the only thing that retrovirus should be used for is to weaken them so they're easier to kill. In fact, I think they should've just cut power to the statis pods and jettisoned the bodies into space, but then there wouldn't have been a show.... Yes! I would not have had a problem with that at all, but you're right... the entire ep would've been skipped :)

The whole plan was to let the wraith feed on themselves anyway, so what's the difference in killing a bunch of them?

[smalldiver.livejournal.com]

*Jumps in on the convo*

The thing is, I think that the entire keeping-wraith-on-the-planet plot was so badly fleshed out that they might as well have just jettisoned the bloody things. I mean, yeah it shows the team making all these moral decisions, but the writers never really show the consequences of that. Next week we'll probably jump to a completely different plot.

[kueble.livejournal.com]

Also, also, I have no problem with them killing off the Wraith-turned-humans.

Thank you! You're the only person I've come across so far who feels the same way I do about the human!Wraith. They're still Wraith, so they're still enemies, just a little disadvantaged at the moment.

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

Seriously, they have to take advantage of that weakness and kill them. It's the only thing that makes sense.

[veracity]

I don't know if I touched this in my review or not, so I'll put it here.

Basically, I have no problems with killing the humanized!Wraith. Why? Because you can't change a leopard's spots to stripes. Eventually they will revert, they will have the knowledge of Atlantis, and they can carry that tidbit to other Hives and not only endanger the expedition's galaxy but others as well, including Earth. Now call me crazy, but neutralizing the enemy before it becomes a even bigger issue is a good thing. I could be kooky like that though.

It makes sense in war, and Carson's waffling between that god-like complex when he made Michael to the "but they're people now" attitdue is starting bug the piss out of me. They're not human! They're not, no mater how dress them up, they're still Wraith with thousands of years of evolution that can't be taken away by a drug. Sorry, you can't change evolution overnight. It's not that easy, and being from Earth and all the knowledge of the inability to fix our own planet's diseases should have weighed in on that.

I get neutralizing them and then killing them. It sucks, but war is never nice or fair. It's about winning to survive the next day.

Them turning back overnight was a dumb plotline in my opinion. It should have been better, focused more on the point so it couldn't be wrapped up in a two-parter. There should have been more far reaching reprecussions than the "Ooh, miss a shot and we're back to being Wraith in no time!" Really unbelievable plotline there. Also, why in the hell did Sheppard leave him there? At least let Ronon stay. Because now Carson is going to be a spy, inadvertently. Saw that coming a mile away. Before they go giving the character more complex material, they need to thread it in with the previous.

The whole episode felt off, and it was because of that storyline. It was a stilted attempt a moral dilemma that was unnecessary because as Ronon said, they're just causalities of war. It happens and it sucks, but anyone from Earth know that. Hell, John should know better than anyone, considering his own blackmark.

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

Them turning back overnight was a dumb plotline in my opinion. Okay, yeah. What's the point of the retrovirius if they have to take it every hour or whatever for it to even work??

[veracity]

Exactly! If they have to give it every hour, it's clearly going to uneffective. You'd think Carson would have been concentrating on that little fact when creating it.

[vonknibble.livejournal.com]

Beckett's retro virus is a massive issue on many counts. The base idea itself is both humane (making them 'safe' as humans) and arrogant at the same time (because they assumed being human was better than death) - and that was before it turned out to be so problematic. Now they know that the de-wraithyfying process is seriously flawed and for the most part basically doesn't work (temporary is no kind of solution).

Michael actually put it quite well - for him, and likely for many of the wraith, being human? they'd rather be dead.

Thing is, the threat they pose to all other people in the pegasus galaxy makes them a threat that has to be dealt with one way or another, and in trying to find a more humane approach to the problem, Beckett et al ended up creating a bigger problem.

We as human's have been at the top of the food chain for as long as we've been around, for the most part, and the wraith to me are interesting but we're in a situation here where we are no longer the top of the food chain. If you look *down* the chain - we eat many of the species below us, so how are we any different?

IMO, being sentient enough to fight for our survival is what gives us the right to fight - and kill - for it, and while we like to think of our selves as basically more socially evolved than that - lets face it, when it comes down to the nitty gritty, we are as instinctual and neanderthal as our anscestors.

I think the likes of the IOC and the rest of the government/pentagon shrubs, and even Weir and Beckett need to realise that killing them is defensive not offensive and *doesn't* make us 'as bad as they are' - It makes us survivors

[booknerdguru.livejournal.com]

I agree with this - the retrovirus as a weapon to neutralize the enemy and then blow them out of the water. But to 'tame' them and then try to make them functioning in human society is just stupid. That's what pisses me off. The 'Lanteans should have *known* better. It didn't work the first time.

I have no problem with killing Wraith, - I do however have some issues with the whole retrovirus thing.

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Mike had the idea. I still don't like that they forcibly drugged him... I have problems with Teyla's role, too. Wasn't she so against it before?

[bibliotech.livejournal.com]

I think Beckett's "They're human now! They look human, so they are human, and the slate's wiped clean!" rhetoric was at best, very foolish. If I magic a goldfish into a person, does that mean I get to flail about and say that they're human now, I have no idea why they keep trying to crawl into that goldfish bowl, because they're human omg?

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

Totally the point *nods* And Sheppard was stupid for leaving him there, because they should all realize Hello! Wraith! Dangerous in all forms!

[bibliotech.livejournal.com]

But they're HUMAN NOW! Except most of the people on Atlantis woud never want them within 100 feet of anyone there, but other than that, TOTALLY HUMAN.

[nakedwesley.livejournal.com]

I thought the same thing about the confrontation in the woods. That they were still acting like Wraith, even in human form. That would have been far more awesome and unexpected. Oh well.

And why on earth was Carson wandering in the woods by himself?? Stu-pid!

I'm ambivelent about them killing the Wraith-humans. Their plan clearly wasn't working and I can't see how they could have successfully integrated them into normal human society. They also couldn't leave them alone and risk them escaping. Still, I understand Rodney and Carson's instinctive reluctance to killing all those 'people'.

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

You'd think with Carson being so nervous offworld (isn't he? Am I fanon-izing him?) that he'd think twice before going off without a guard, and isn't that protocol or something? He was very very stupid.

Still, I understand Rodney and Carson's instinctive reluctance to killing all those 'people'. Yes, I think there reluctance is very telling, but Carson just went past that and into dumb-ville.

[pinkpapyrus.livejournal.com]

if Rodney weren't in this episode, I probably would have hated it. John wasn't quirky or cute or dorky, and I get the reason behind it, but it was still very meh. Rodney, though. *g*

"Figure out how to fly this thing yet?"
"Oh, yeah. Fly, shimmy, spin like a top. You didn't think it would be hard, did you?"

"We feel the same way you do."
"Oh, she feels hungry too?" *g*

*LOVESSOMUCH*

(*goes to watch Torment of Tantalus*)

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

Rodney makes everything better, doesn't he? Radek would've put a certain shine to the ep, too :)

[smalldiver.livejournal.com]

I found it hard to see what was happening in this episode because of the giant gaping plot holes obscuring it.

I think that they should have taken the fact that, you know, Sheppard destroyed the friggin' hyperdrive on the Wraith ship and made this episode into a trying-to-figure-out-how-to-get-home thing rather than a fifty-different-badly-fleshed-out-plots thing.

And I agree about Beckett. He's my woobie, but seriously, going walkabout by himself in a potentially hostile/dangerous area without at least one bloody escort... oy. Although that's probably a problem with the writers than the actual character. And what was up with the "He's barely breathing... oh wait, he's fine now."? I wanna see a plot where Carson gets injured and the others have to worry and take care of him, damnit! *Stamps foot*

OK, contrary to what this may seem like, I did actually like this episode. I just love the Atlantis characters too damn much to hate this show. And I did love Caldwell snarking to Woolsey. :D

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

Oooo, trying to get home would've been a much better plot thread than the stupid wraith-turned-human.

I wanna see a plot where Carson gets injured and the others have to worry and take care of him, damnit! *Stamps foot* *laughs* that'd probably only happen in fanfic:)

[wordsindreams.livejournal.com]

Wraith!Michael is hot.
Evil human!Michael is hot.
Half human, half wraith Michael is hot.
Maybe I just think Michael is hot no matter what. Yeah, that's it.

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

I agree about evil human!Mike, but I still just find the Wraith creepy looking.

I hope Mikey survived, though!

[zabbers.livejournal.com]

The Wraith-nature-though-human-looking thing would have been so cool. Also, without a Queen, they might fall apart even more.

[skoosiepants.livejournal.com]

Oh, the Queen! I didn't even think of that, but yeah. That would've been cool to explore.